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	<title>Comments on: Strange Encounters of the Pentecostal Kind</title>
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	<link>http://theophiliacs.com/2010/07/03/strange-encounters-of-the-pentecostal-kind/</link>
	<description>amiable. anglican. awesome.</description>
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		<title>By: Speaking in sub-rational tongues &#171; I Think I Believe</title>
		<link>http://theophiliacs.com/2010/07/03/strange-encounters-of-the-pentecostal-kind/#comment-5902</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Speaking in sub-rational tongues &#171; I Think I Believe]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Jul 2010 07:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theophiliacs.com/?p=5076#comment-5902</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] personally, I encourage anyone to do so - in the Spirit and in service of the church2. As my friend Tony Hunt said recently, the gifts of the Spirit must be regarded as a move of [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] personally, I encourage anyone to do so &#8211; in the Spirit and in service of the church2. As my friend Tony Hunt said recently, the gifts of the Spirit must be regarded as a move of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: steve</title>
		<link>http://theophiliacs.com/2010/07/03/strange-encounters-of-the-pentecostal-kind/#comment-5874</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jul 2010 11:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theophiliacs.com/?p=5076#comment-5874</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Stronstad&#039;s Prophethood of All Believers is like his The Charismatic Theology of St. Luke in that it is heavily uses a redactive analysis.  I suspect that  redactive criticism makes the book unattractive to many in the US Assemblies.  But to me, it is thoroughly convincing. I read a library copy about six years ago and just bought a copy to reread now.  I am thoroughly enjoying it.

Flaky Pentecostalism is not didactic.  But good Pentecostal hermeneutics might be a little different from a strict historical grammatical approach.

The triad in First Corinthians 12:4 to 6 not only addresses the trinity but also addresses charismatic gifts, service and works.  When studying the word meanings, combining gifts and service results in lasting works.  The kind of works that are not burned up in the fire described in First Corinthians 3:13-15.

When I was a new Pentecostal I regularly got together with two friends for Bible study.  One night a friend&#039;s wife was out so he hired a baby sitter.  This high school girl had some questions about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  She left Holy Spirit baptized, praying in tongues and empowered.  We told her to continue praying in tongues and told her God would give her gifts of wisdom on who to pray for and witness to.  In about six weeks, she multiplied into about sixty high school students in our Bible study.  Gifts combined with service resulted in kingdom work.

With Hybels&#039; admission of the ineffectiveness of the Willow Creek methods in discipleship, it is disappointing to me that some AG pastors persist in using it.  Willow Creek does say their methods are good for filling and paying for buildings but not building the body of Christ we are charged to build.  We are charged with kingdom discipleship.  Some pastors must be too comfortable in their church&#039;s financial success rather than kingdom success.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stronstad&#8217;s Prophethood of All Believers is like his The Charismatic Theology of St. Luke in that it is heavily uses a redactive analysis.  I suspect that  redactive criticism makes the book unattractive to many in the US Assemblies.  But to me, it is thoroughly convincing. I read a library copy about six years ago and just bought a copy to reread now.  I am thoroughly enjoying it.</p>
<p>Flaky Pentecostalism is not didactic.  But good Pentecostal hermeneutics might be a little different from a strict historical grammatical approach.</p>
<p>The triad in First Corinthians 12:4 to 6 not only addresses the trinity but also addresses charismatic gifts, service and works.  When studying the word meanings, combining gifts and service results in lasting works.  The kind of works that are not burned up in the fire described in First Corinthians 3:13-15.</p>
<p>When I was a new Pentecostal I regularly got together with two friends for Bible study.  One night a friend&#8217;s wife was out so he hired a baby sitter.  This high school girl had some questions about the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  She left Holy Spirit baptized, praying in tongues and empowered.  We told her to continue praying in tongues and told her God would give her gifts of wisdom on who to pray for and witness to.  In about six weeks, she multiplied into about sixty high school students in our Bible study.  Gifts combined with service resulted in kingdom work.</p>
<p>With Hybels&#8217; admission of the ineffectiveness of the Willow Creek methods in discipleship, it is disappointing to me that some AG pastors persist in using it.  Willow Creek does say their methods are good for filling and paying for buildings but not building the body of Christ we are charged to build.  We are charged with kingdom discipleship.  Some pastors must be too comfortable in their church&#8217;s financial success rather than kingdom success.</p>
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		<title>By: adhunt</title>
		<link>http://theophiliacs.com/2010/07/03/strange-encounters-of-the-pentecostal-kind/#comment-5872</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[adhunt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jul 2010 04:47:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theophiliacs.com/?p=5076#comment-5872</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ha!  By &#039;classic&#039; I was referring to his &quot;Charismatic Theology of St. Luke.&quot;  I just wasn&#039;t paying close enough attention.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ha!  By &#8216;classic&#8217; I was referring to his &#8220;Charismatic Theology of St. Luke.&#8221;  I just wasn&#8217;t paying close enough attention.</p>
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		<title>By: adhunt</title>
		<link>http://theophiliacs.com/2010/07/03/strange-encounters-of-the-pentecostal-kind/#comment-5843</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[adhunt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 01:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theophiliacs.com/?p=5076#comment-5843</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All great points from a classic work.  One qualm I would have is to contrast the apparent &#039;didactic&#039; quality of treasuring sound doctrine &#039;over against&#039; the Spirit-filled/led/empowered ministry.  Please Lord...let it be that they can exist together!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All great points from a classic work.  One qualm I would have is to contrast the apparent &#8216;didactic&#8217; quality of treasuring sound doctrine &#8216;over against&#8217; the Spirit-filled/led/empowered ministry.  Please Lord&#8230;let it be that they can exist together!</p>
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		<title>By: steve</title>
		<link>http://theophiliacs.com/2010/07/03/strange-encounters-of-the-pentecostal-kind/#comment-5842</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jul 2010 01:08:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theophiliacs.com/?p=5076#comment-5842</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Roger Stronstad in his book, The Prophethood of All Believers: A Study in Luke&#039;s Charismatic Theology, makes the following critical observation concerning today&#039;s Pentecostal/charismatic and non-Pentecostal/non-charismatic churches:


“The Church is to be a community of prophets.  But from the post-apostolic period to the present it has not functioned as a prophetic community which is powerful in works and word.  In fact, in too many places the Church views itself as a didactic community rather than as a prophetic community, where sound doctrine is treasured above charismatic action.  Indeed, the preaching and teaching of the word displaces Spirit-filled, Spirit-led, and Spirit-empowered ministry.  The Spirit of prophecy has been quenched and the gifts of the Spirit has been sanitized and institutionalized.  The non-Pentecostal/non-charismatic church needs to recapture its prophetic heritage, to which it is either hostile or indifferent.

As a prophetic community God&#039;s people are to be active in service. However, all too often the Pentecostal, charismatic movements focus on the experience, the emotion, and the blessing more than they do on Spirit-filled, Spirit-led, and Spirit-empowered service.  This shift in focus from vocation to personal experience, from being world-centered to self-centered, renders the service of the Pentecostal, charismatic movement just about as impotent as the service of the contemporary non-Pentecostal, non-charismatic church.  This focus on experience rather than on service is like selling one&#039;s birthright of Spirit-empowered service for the pottage of self-seeking experience and blessing.”]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Roger Stronstad in his book, The Prophethood of All Believers: A Study in Luke&#8217;s Charismatic Theology, makes the following critical observation concerning today&#8217;s Pentecostal/charismatic and non-Pentecostal/non-charismatic churches:</p>
<p>“The Church is to be a community of prophets.  But from the post-apostolic period to the present it has not functioned as a prophetic community which is powerful in works and word.  In fact, in too many places the Church views itself as a didactic community rather than as a prophetic community, where sound doctrine is treasured above charismatic action.  Indeed, the preaching and teaching of the word displaces Spirit-filled, Spirit-led, and Spirit-empowered ministry.  The Spirit of prophecy has been quenched and the gifts of the Spirit has been sanitized and institutionalized.  The non-Pentecostal/non-charismatic church needs to recapture its prophetic heritage, to which it is either hostile or indifferent.</p>
<p>As a prophetic community God&#8217;s people are to be active in service. However, all too often the Pentecostal, charismatic movements focus on the experience, the emotion, and the blessing more than they do on Spirit-filled, Spirit-led, and Spirit-empowered service.  This shift in focus from vocation to personal experience, from being world-centered to self-centered, renders the service of the Pentecostal, charismatic movement just about as impotent as the service of the contemporary non-Pentecostal, non-charismatic church.  This focus on experience rather than on service is like selling one&#8217;s birthright of Spirit-empowered service for the pottage of self-seeking experience and blessing.”</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://theophiliacs.com/2010/07/03/strange-encounters-of-the-pentecostal-kind/#comment-5826</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jul 2010 15:33:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theophiliacs.com/?p=5076#comment-5826</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You may already know this from our conversations, Tony, but your last bullet point above is exactly what I perceive to be the bogey-man in classical Pentecostalism&#039;s closet. Once classical Pentecostal groups such as the Assemblies began to move away from their initial identities out of a quest for societal acceptance (as Don Dayton has argued), particularly by other groups involved with the National Association of Evangelicals, they bought into various &#039;evangelical&#039; doctrines that weren&#039;t necessarily majority/super-majority views in the beginning: scriptural inerrancy, classical dispensationalism, anti-ecumenism.

This is why the current Pentecostal-hand wringing over its identity vis a vis other evangelical groups is both unsurprising and disappointing: when you let go of your entire identity as Pentecostals with the exception of a couple of &quot;doctrinal distinctives&quot;, you find yourself looking around at your churches and wondering &quot;Why do we not look any different than any other evangelical churches?&quot; In my view, groups like the AG sold the farm to the evangelicals when they tried to become like them in the 40s and 50s. Now, what we&#039;ve got left in the AG (as Mel Robeck has very persuasively and colorfully argued) is a quasi-magisterium who enforces its will on &quot;distinctive doctrines.&quot; Meaning, of course, that for the current AG, initial physical evidence means that every single person who is baptized in the Spirit will speak in tongues, and if they don&#039;t, they therefore aren&#039;t baptized in the Spirit. Where the doctrine actually &quot;says&quot; this, I am unaware. It is not clear at all that this reading of the doctrine is the one necessarily implied by the Fundamental Truths. 

But this functionally does not matter: AG pastors whose churches look evangelical have, by and large in this district, given up on being distinctively Pentecostal, buying into various kinds of seeker-senstitive, Willow Creek-style evangelicalism, even though they sign the statement of Fundamental Truths every year. 

(PS I should note: there are at least 3 AG churches in the Twin Cities Metro that I think escape this criticism - but they aren&#039;t the hip, chic, large churches).

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You may already know this from our conversations, Tony, but your last bullet point above is exactly what I perceive to be the bogey-man in classical Pentecostalism&#8217;s closet. Once classical Pentecostal groups such as the Assemblies began to move away from their initial identities out of a quest for societal acceptance (as Don Dayton has argued), particularly by other groups involved with the National Association of Evangelicals, they bought into various &#8216;evangelical&#8217; doctrines that weren&#8217;t necessarily majority/super-majority views in the beginning: scriptural inerrancy, classical dispensationalism, anti-ecumenism.</p>
<p>This is why the current Pentecostal-hand wringing over its identity vis a vis other evangelical groups is both unsurprising and disappointing: when you let go of your entire identity as Pentecostals with the exception of a couple of &#8220;doctrinal distinctives&#8221;, you find yourself looking around at your churches and wondering &#8220;Why do we not look any different than any other evangelical churches?&#8221; In my view, groups like the AG sold the farm to the evangelicals when they tried to become like them in the 40s and 50s. Now, what we&#8217;ve got left in the AG (as Mel Robeck has very persuasively and colorfully argued) is a quasi-magisterium who enforces its will on &#8220;distinctive doctrines.&#8221; Meaning, of course, that for the current AG, initial physical evidence means that every single person who is baptized in the Spirit will speak in tongues, and if they don&#8217;t, they therefore aren&#8217;t baptized in the Spirit. Where the doctrine actually &#8220;says&#8221; this, I am unaware. It is not clear at all that this reading of the doctrine is the one necessarily implied by the Fundamental Truths. </p>
<p>But this functionally does not matter: AG pastors whose churches look evangelical have, by and large in this district, given up on being distinctively Pentecostal, buying into various kinds of seeker-senstitive, Willow Creek-style evangelicalism, even though they sign the statement of Fundamental Truths every year. </p>
<p>(PS I should note: there are at least 3 AG churches in the Twin Cities Metro that I think escape this criticism &#8211; but they aren&#8217;t the hip, chic, large churches).</p>
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		<title>By: jstambaugh</title>
		<link>http://theophiliacs.com/2010/07/03/strange-encounters-of-the-pentecostal-kind/#comment-5824</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jstambaugh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Jul 2010 02:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://theophiliacs.com/?p=5076#comment-5824</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nice post Tony.  Incidentally I noticed that this post happens to be theophiliacs&#039; 400th post, congratulations!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice post Tony.  Incidentally I noticed that this post happens to be theophiliacs&#8217; 400th post, congratulations!</p>
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